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Proposed UK legislation
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01-02-2010, 09:29 PM
Post: #41
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
Thanks very much Prof, that's great. I think that as James said nobody questions that young people need to be protected from harm. Personally, I would prefer them to have access to PVs if they would otherwise smoke or satisfy their curiosities with other substances. Apparently NRT is given to school age kids in the UK who smoke.
I've just noticed that I put the wrong link on my post about Paul's blog in post #36 but he added the link in the following post anyway. |
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01-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Post: #42
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
Working on it now...
I won't slave for beggar's pay, likewise gold and jewels, but I would slave to learn the way to sink your ship of fools |
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01-07-2010, 12:59 PM
Post: #43
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
This is what I've done thus far - change as you all see fit. (The bit "the most serious of crimes" is there because you can be arrested for waving a toy gun about)
Electronic cigarettes/nicotine inhalers offer a genuine alternative to smokers which provides enormous harm-reduction compared to the dangers of inhaling the products of burning tobacco. Please help us to keep these life saving products available and effective. Irrelevant or unnecessary regulations could harm people by discouraging their use and rendering an effective alternative to the use of tobacco as ineffective as NRTs such as gums and patches. Sale of these products is already covered by the Poisons Act 1972 (maximum nicotine content of 7.5%), CHIP standards (for packaging), CE mark regulations (for electrical goods) and general trading laws which say the products must be fit for purpose. Thoughtful legislation that would protect young people from toxins and addiction is clearly desirable and it would be responsible to allow availability of these products only to young people who would otherwise smoke. However we strongly oppose proposals to reclassify the use of such products as “smoking” on the grounds that their use might be confused with the smoking of tobacco by onlookers. Electronic cigarettes do not burn tobacco and produce only a short lived vapour and no unpleasant odours. The idea of “regulation by appearance” is contrary to a civilized society – making a legal action illegal merely because someone might confuse it with anything but the most serious of crimes would render our lives (and law enforcement) untenable. Vaping – the use of electronic cigarettes - is a recreational habit providing a safer alternative to smoking and is not a medical treatment. As such it needs to be regulated appropriately by giving priority consideration to the rights of UK citizens to make their own informed decisions in choosing what they enjoy to do. I won't slave for beggar's pay, likewise gold and jewels, but I would slave to learn the way to sink your ship of fools |
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01-07-2010, 01:41 PM
Post: #44
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
That sounds great to me Prof, you're a star. Thanks very much for working on this. Next step is getting Eric to publish it if nobody has any amendments. Then we can spread the word.
Regarding the original issue that started this thread - the letter to the Dept of Health from LACORS, Trading Standards Institute and The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health; I've only had the reply from LACORS and that was not about the issue, just some fob off thing. The Dept of Health have also fobbed me off and ASH UK haven't acknowledged this issue. Perhaps the best start would be to get the petition going and then to write to politicians and the media. One step at a time, we need to see if Prof's wording is ok with folk first. If anyone reading this has any suggestions, please let us know. Thanks. |
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01-07-2010, 01:47 PM
Post: #45
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
"However" needs a comma after it
I won't slave for beggar's pay, likewise gold and jewels, but I would slave to learn the way to sink your ship of fools |
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01-07-2010, 04:27 PM
Post: #46
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
Many thanks indeed to you Prof...it's very tricky getting the right words together, you've done a sterling job.
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02-05-2010, 12:07 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-05-2010 12:28 PM by BigSpenda.)
Post: #47
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 RE: Proposed UK legislation
(12-23-2009 03:48 AM)Kate Wrote: Here's some information I found from LACORS - So far, what I've read from the 'opposition' is all about illegal sales. How many people buy Russian Marlboros, on the cheap, to dodge UK cig taxes? The potential for illegality exists in everything! How many people sell their NHS-prescribed pain-killers, for street-value, and pocket the money? Plenty. It is because this is a young, start-up business, and it threatens the profit-bases and 'turf' of some of the world's most corrupt entities (Tobacco and Pharmaceuticals), that we are in this situation. I agree, nobody should sell nicotine to anyone below the age of 18. No reputable online merchant does, and all the reputable online merchants are also absolutely CHIP-compliant in their packaging. Brava on your point regarding the out-of-context quotation from the WHO. Well-caught! So far, what I see as issues which we as consumers, and of course all the traders need to address are the following: ITEM I. That we do not support, nor do we in any way endorse the use of nicotine, nor the availability of any toxic substance, to children. (Excuse me, but I need to send me little lad down the shop to get some bleach, as the the drain's bunged up again). No seriously, we all know there is the potential for illegal use, and, as with all such products, not only does everything need to be clearly labelled, but also, steps must be taken on websites, (and, one would hope, in shops, though you wouldn't know that by the local offie), NOT to permit sales to minors. In the spirit of preventing same: a) Most of these products (not the horrid pre-made, disposables, alas) are quite expensive. They are not within the price range of kids who just want a quick, naughty smoke. There is nothing quick, easy, and cheap, about buying all the startup paraphernalia. (In fact, if pre-filled carts were taken off the market, it wouldn't bother most dedicated vapers, and would make the products much less child-friendly; that goes under a different sub-heading, too.) b) None of the reputable online merchants of which I am aware, in the UK, does not use CHIP-compliant bottles for products containing nicotine. Those that do, or anyone claiming to sell e-juice on the street (which could be lighter-fluid, or brake-fluid... teenagers will buy anything... my brother once bought a bag of oregano that had been sprayed with insecticide, thinking it was 'weed'. It smelt bad enough that he asked me, [  ] and I flushed the lot!) should be put out of business at once. As consumer-driven as this industry is, we've already pretty much settled on our reputable merchants, of whom I have a bookmarked list of twelve, and mostly buy from four. I encourage everyone who vapes, and would like to keep vaping, to do web-searches; find those merchants who do not take appropriate precautions, and contact them about it! Explain that they are the weapon that is being used to destroy their own business, and suggest that they change the manner of their sales. Be nice, but be firm. Most online companies like that are fly-by-night, in any case. Some, will change their policies, if it is a chance for them to stay in business, selling their second-rate goods... to whoever buys that shite... I didn't say a word... c) The vaping community needs to, and can, and WILL boycott sellers of one-offs, pre-made e-cigs, or full kits, where there is no proof of age required. Tell your MPs and anyone to whom you write to, that you do not deal with merchants who are not strictly in compliance with the laws for child-safety. (Generally, to prove a customer is of age, a credit- or debit-card number needs to be registered with the merchant, even if transactions take place with PayPal. It also does not hurt to require people to join a list, where they are expected to give their correct ages, names, and physical addresses, to which they must be willing to accept postal mail. This does not mean the merchant will send any, but it does mean potential customers have to think about whether they want Mummy to see it! In short, whatever knife-sellers do, on the Internet, our merchants should do, as well.) Boycotting, writing to, and complaining to sellers, particularly those who who do a small trade in e-cigs, and are harming the overall industry, is something we can all do, and by doing so, we will give our reputable dealers more clout, and clear up some of the confusion. (Both as concerns minors, and with regard to 'fake cigarettes') I propose we all act, to put a stop to stupid things like Prezzy-Box selling a single Gamucci micro, using Paypal. Even though, theoretically, one must be 18 to use Paypal, not all parents are careful. Not all merchants are responsible. We can show that we want it to be difficult, for minors to get hold of 'e-cigs'! (More on that below.) I also think as many as possible of our merchants need to contact the owners of Gamucci, Milano, NuCig, and sellers of some of the rubbish that is available via Amazon.co.uk, and ask them to cease and desist their one-off distributions, and explain why they present a problem. The one-click order from Amazon.co.uk does require Daddy's credit-card number, but it is frightfully easy. ITEM II: Some of the US retailers do make the claim that 'e-cigs' are a way to help smokers quit. Their laws, their claims. Not our problem, unless they sell in the UK. IF they do, they need to fall in line, or lose their UK market. This is a 'vote with your feet' issue. UK consumers, who buy from US retailers who make that claim, you are causing trouble for all of us, and for every UK-based merchant! Please stop shopping with those companies, and buy from UK-based merchants only! Take away the MHRA's ammunition! The power is still in the pocket, here! Either those US firms will change their labelling and advertising to fall into line with what is necessary in the UK, or they'll lose their customers and stop selling here. If they won't play by our rules, when we need them to, fxxk 'em! Obviously, all the merchants who sell in the UK need to make it absolutely clear, on every page of their websites, in their novelty shops, wherever these products are sold, in glo-icky orange letters, and on every box and bottle, that: This Product Is Not Intended in Any Way Whatsoever, To Be a Smoking Cessation Aid. This Is Not Nicotine Replacement Therapy. That Is Exclusively Available Through The NHS. What the hell? Take it further, add a long and wordy statement (I'm good at writing those, in case you hadn't noticed) suggesting to customers, that while vaping is a pleasurable alternative to smoking, they should still see their GPs about quitting. Just like the THIS WILL KILL YOU labelling on cigarette packages, it's throwing the dog its bone. These disclaimers, which MUST appear on each individual Gamucci bloody micro, in ORANGE, will clear up any alleged 'confusion' about whether or not e-cigs are a 'medical' product. That will force the MHRA to find a way to prove they are one, before they can regulate it. At least, in theory, that is how it should work. (I don't know the ins and outs of the gummint here. On legal matters, I'm not brilliant, but I can read Legalese, and distil what they're saying. I'm British, but I lived in the States, most of my life. I've only been back here four years. However, I have been doing social-justice activism, and organising boycotts, demos, and petitions, since I was seven. I know a fair old bit about pressure tactics, and how to take away the enemy's ammunition. Anything I can help with, I am happy to do! Please feel free to ask. PM or better, email me. I'm on Facebook under my real name. Put 'Vaper' in your friend request or message, please.) Back to our glo-icky orange disclaimers. Get those printing presses rolling out [color]labels[/color], merchants, because this is one of the angles you/we have, and must exploit to its fullest. The products you sell are not for smoking cessation. They are an hobby, and an activity unto themselves, unrelated to smoking! In fact, one could take the nicotine out of the equation completely, and people who vape, would likely go on vaping, and sell their friends on it. This is still a fairly new industry. Word of mouth, and seeing people doing it is much of the publicity. I do not know who is buying all of that advertising space, referred to above. Somebody who does, please inform me? I can guess, but I'm not sure. The burden on the merchants is to cover your arses as completely as possible. This is why I am saying plaster your product, your website, and lord help you, your adverts with as much in the way of disclaimers regarding 'not being NRT', and 'No Minors' labelling as you can fit on the page! Make like a porn site in the prudish USA, with a lockout page, and PIN-entry, for people who have verified that they are the owners and users of credit-and/or debit-cards. Then, have a huge page about not being UNRELATED to smoking-cessation products, and make sure that disclaimer also appears on every page, in a non-popping, non-blockable, ugly-arse way! Obviously, there will be some expence, involved. I have a hunch many of us will be stocking up, as though vaping were going out of existence -- though it is very much NOT doing -- so that will help to defray the cost of getting a million, zillion labels. (IDEALLY, all of you sellers would use the same labels, and could make massive, collective orders, with printers here in the UK, so you get the labels on everything that goes out your doors by next week!) I am not joking about the haste needed. Just as we customers need to be writing letters like mad, now -- not later, but now -- you retailers need to be covering your arses now. Today. June 21st is ridiculous, and we will do everything possible to make that not be any sort of dead---line. You all need to do the same. If that means tearing down your websites and having a huge old bash at them, it does. ITEM III: Re-branding and the power of words... I know why TW moved away from 'e-cigs'. It's time ALL you merchants did. It's time all of us did as consumers. Don't sell anything that looks exactly, or even slightly, like a piece of paper rolled up around a bunch of dirty leaves, with fire at the end. If you must sell 'supers' make 'em PINK. Or black, or shiny metallic. Just so they are obviously not cigarettes, for those feeble-witted people who can't tell, from a distance, and see someone vaping, and reason it's all right to light a fag... and for the benefit of the anti-smoking police, who are rather dim, but very, very militant. Even e-cigs.co.uk would do well to distance themselves as much as possible from 'cigarettes', by changing the company name! I do not like TW's choice of the name 'Nicotine Inhalators' much; it's too similar to something the NHS make. Oi, Pillbox38! I hope you read this, though I understand from another thread that you've already decided to bend over for them, which leaves the all our other UK merchants pretty well fxxked, doesn't it? It's all right for you. You have that kind of ready money. The prices you charge, it's not surprising. And, you can always re-locate to the States, where the laws are loosening as I type. I'm not keen on treachery... Oh, deary me. Did I say that? Wow... Never meant to harsh your mellow, dude. I'm all worked up at the moment. I can't imagine what got into me. Here I am, a member of your partners' program and all... To return to what I was saying, this cannot be emphasised enough: Words have power. A name like 'Flavour Vaporising Devices' is both accurate, and completely disingenuous. It doesn't say 'nicotine'. I think, word of mouth, and Wikipedia, would be enough to make it clear that what that means is Flavoured Nicotine Vaporising Devices. But, in point of fact, the presence of nicotine is not the only reason why people enjoy vaping. Flavour Arts, Italia, started making flavours for other reasons, as did LorAnn, in the USA. I don't know how many tiny bottles of flavours I have, at the moment. I've lost track. Mixing and blending my own (I've got a lovely toast with butter and marmalade flavour, which is delightful with a cuppa) is one of the joys of this new and interesting pastime. My friend, for whom I bought the first kits, was all for having it be 'just like ciggies', at first. She's vaping grapefruit, and black-cherry/menthol, now. It took her less than a month, to lose interest in trying to replicate the taste of analogues. This brings me back to the suggestion of not selling pre-filled carts. Alternatively, do sell pre-filled carts, but only in Zero-Nicotine strength. New users will use them, and top them up with nicotine-juice (from wherever -- it doesn't matter if the nicotine has to come from the NHS! Not that we want that, but what difference does it make? It saves the merchants from having to jump through all the CHIP-compliance and other hoops, if they don't sell the actual nicotine). The idea here is to distance the whole concept of vaping from smoking, as much as possible. It's not down to me to come up with a new name, but we MUST put the entire concept of the 'electronic cigarette' behind us, and close the door on it, now. The manufacturers of Milanos and Gamuccis and so on will not be happy, because 'looks-like, tastes-like, but isn't' has been their whole marketing strategy. They also only sell 'tobacco', and 'menthol' flavours. I doubt seriously, that their market-share is significant enough, for them to carry on doing what they have been doing, if they meet with sufficient pressure to cease and desist. That should come from the merchants, but consumers can do our share. I will email Gamucci, and the makers of Milano, and any other similar products, and tell them why I would never buy their products, and what a negative impact their cig-alikes are having. They may care or they may not. If enough of us also email every online store that sells their stuff, and ask them to drop this product, and make sure to warn all those retailers, that we will not buy anything from them, until or unless they drop the fake-cigarettes, it will have an effect. It doesn't matter if you'd never shop at Prezzy-Box to save your life! Email them, and tell them not to sell electronic cigarettes, because those products are causing problems for serious users of Vapour Inhaling Products. Add that you have them bookmarked, and will be watching, and have no intention of making any purchases from them, unless they stop selling e-cigs. You may not have any intention of ever making purchases from them. They don't know that! It helps if you register and have an account with them, before you threaten not to shop there. Unfortunately, you'll be on their mailing-lists. Use your junk email account. I don't know where the makers of Gamucci and Milano and NuCig are based. I suspect they are Chinese corporations, who do a sideline in electronic cigarette-facsimiles. We, as serious users of Flavoured Vapour Inhalation Devices, do NOT want those on the market. That is something to put in your letters, to the various Ministerial types, too. We do not want what we do, to be mistaken for 'imitating smoking'. Unfortunately, there are products on the market, which look like cigarettes, which have generated much confusion. We repudiate such products, and... this would be the place to insert a footnote, so you can provide a list of all the retailers you have written to, to ask them to stop selling such products. If we, as consumers, all agree NOT to purchase, or use WHITE FlavoHalors (Oh, shit... I've just coined an hideous new nickname, for these little devices, and I'm afraid it's a damn good one...  sorry people. 'FlavoVapers' works, too; better, and it includes the verb 'to vape', which also addresses the clouds of vapour.  They said a degree in Sociology was useful in Advertising! I loathe the advertising-industry!  I don't know whether it's the 40 years in the USA, or the being able to recite the Douglas Adams 'Hitchhikers' books, which are full of clever brand-names...) As I was saying, before I so rudely interrupted myself, if we unanimously stop buying white batteries, atomisers, and cartridges, and stick to other colours and styles, (or in a Be Kind to Our Merchants spirit, buy up their stock of white stuff, for use at home, but never anywhere else, knowing they will discontinue the sale of said white hardware), then the anti-smoking police, the Medical establishment, and the general public, will have that much less reason to associate vaping, with 'pretend smoking'. This is our strongest angle, and the position they probably understand the least. Vaping is a new leisure activity, unrelated to smoking, except insofar as: there are some behavioural similarities, and there is the OPTION of having nicotine present in the flavoured e-juice. That the exhaled vapour looks, to the casual observer, like smoke, is purely co-incidental. It doesn't smell like smoke. It doesn't cling like smoke. It is not smoke. The stuff that comes out of your kettle isn't -- and oughtn't to be -- smoke, either! A *gritted teeth* 'FlavoVaper' is exactly as much like a cigarette as a kettle is! I probably didn't address every single point in your post, Kate, but I've been at this for about six hours, so I think I'm just going to hit 'send', and be done with the damn thing. I hope I've given people some ideas and direction. At least for a start.  Uma (01-07-2010 12:59 PM)prof beard Wrote: This is what I've done thus far - change as you all see fit. (The bit "the most serious of crimes" is there because you can be arrested for waving a toy gun about) I do not object to any part of this letter, per se. However, if you'll see my very long response to Kate, I am not sure we want vaping to be perceived in the context of 'smoking', at all. I like your 'regulation by appearance' paragraph very much. I would not say 'recreational habit', but rather, 'recreational activity'. Aww, bxllxxks, I'm going to have to copy this and do my own version. Thank you for an excellent start, Professor. This is a very good template, for people who disagree with me, about distancing vaping from smoking, altogether. I think I can write that letter. Time for me get a quick bite, and have a bit of a think, and see what I can crank out. Uma  Leave Our Civil Liberties Be! |
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02-05-2010, 01:50 PM
Post: #48
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 RE: Proposed UK legislation
(12-22-2009 03:21 PM)Kate Wrote: The Chartered Institute of Environmental Health replied to my email today with a copy of the letter they sent to the Dept of Health and a contact for us to talk to. What irks me about this letter, which is, if one cuts out most of the goo and dribble, about two sentences long, is that the writer actually says it is 'pure conjecture', and yet carries on as though it were fact. That's what they're all doing! This is a new industry, so no, there haven't been regulations established for advertising. However, the responsible merchants already make sure to put prominent disclaimers about vaping not being a form of smoking cessation therapy, and about nicotine being a poison (which is regulated), in all their websites and materials. I can't wrap my head 'round how government bodies in this country can make shit up, about what 'might' happen, call vapour 'smoke', when there is no fire, and try to base legislation on whole-cloth fabrications! If this is how they fight, I don't know how to fight back, because they'll make up new shit, as they go along! I'm used to uphill battles with bureaucracies. I'm quite good at them, as long as the playing field isn't a could of smoke, blown out the government's...  ! That, I can't fight. They'll just pile new lies on top of the old ones.Momentarily defeatist. Could just be the eye-strain headache talking... Uma I don't give up. I may lose. I don't quit. You all with me? Yes, that's a Yank attitude. They have a knack for not taking things like this lying down, and I am grateful to have learnt that, in my 40 years in the USA! Leave Our Civil Liberties Be! |
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02-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Post: #49
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RE: Proposed UK legislation
Don't take it too seriously, it doesn't have any substance and won't stand up in court.
In fact, vapour is not smoke, ecigs are not tobacco and nicotine is not illegal. They're making up a case so they don't have to do their jobs and enforce existing regulations plus they've bought into the 'smokers are nasty beasts to be inconvenienced and shunned' message that anti smokers have been pumping out for years. Facts are facts and they won't change, we'll see our case through and hopefully save the lives they want to discard. |
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